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Dave D.
Super Moderator\Breeder
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Posted: Tue Apr 21st, 2009 03:09 am |
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I attended the drahthaar VJP test (youth test). I was very interested in seeing how they do their rabbit track. I wanted to find out how they utilize it, how it is done, and how it is judged. When I reviewed our test and compared what I saw....I think the test has a very different focus. The drahthaars are being judged on a 20 yard cottontail run...they are not running the rabbit, they are running the actual track. I was told they were looking for cooperation, use of nose, and etc.... I felt the test was much more simpler than what was expected of the Wachtelhund. I conclude this with NO disrespect to the drahthaars as they work very hard and showed exceptional abilities. If you see review the Wachtelhund JP
http://www.deutscherwachtelhund.org/VDW%20Hunt%20test%20Regulations.htm
You will find that test is focused around the hare track. I think it is imperative that we attempt to duplicate this as close as possible...this is what the dog was bred to do!!! If anyone has suggestions on how we can duplicate this, please email me!
Dave
The first part of the test was to run the dog and point some birds...Judging on such things as pointing, cooperation, use of nose, etc....
The judges, the owner, and the dog at work
The dog busting a bird...look and you will see it flying between the dog and the judges
Point!
 Last edited on Tue Apr 21st, 2009 09:55 am by Dave P.
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Dave D.
Super Moderator\Breeder
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Posted: Tue Apr 21st, 2009 03:21 am |
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Now we move on to the rabbit part....
Sernior judge giving direction to the "drivers"
Dog and handler waiting on the side for a rabbit to be spotted.
"Drivers" in the bush....it was a tree farm with switch grass....it looks much thicker than it really was but there were a ton of bunnies...it was long and narrow....maybe a total of 5 to 10 acres....
waiting for the dog to work the track....
Judge calling the dog over to work the track...
This was the vantage point of one of the judges....you can see the dog working the rabbit track...
Working another track....
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Aaron
DWNA Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 21st, 2009 07:19 pm |
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Interesting post Dave. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I believe that Drahts and Wachtels are both very special breeds. They do many of the same things well, but in different ways.
Example: when taking a walk in the forest and my dogs are playing too fare away I will dash off in an unexpected direction and hide in a log jam or in a toped tree. This trains the dogs to keep track of me or loose me. And it helps them learn to use their nose better. The Draht will run at break neck speed weaving and leaping over obstacles with a passionate furry. She finds my location with a combination of air and ground sent. The Wachtel equally exited goes to where he last saw me and than methodically tracks me to location. Individually both dogs would always fined me, together the Wachtel gets to me first 7 out of 10 times. The Draht is a stronger swimmer, has better eyes, and is highly intelligent but, the Wachtel is more methodical and thorough, better in thick cover, and has a superior nose. They are both great dogs, but very different.
It make good sense to work with the VDD people as these men have a similar perspective of breeding and training as we do. But, good or bad the dogs are too different for the same testing. In advanced testing, the Draht is expected to maintain a higher levels of obedience comparable to Wachtel tests. But, as Dave has stated the biggest difference is greater capabilities in TRACKING of the Wachtel.
In my neck of the woods the triad papers often have postings of Eastern and Western Cotton Tale Rabbits for sale. These are box trapped rabbits that are kept in captivity and breed. Many in our club are from the West. Do any of you Westerners know if Jack Rabbits are being breed in a like manner? If I could get my hands on the appropriate breeding stock, I would be willing to breed rabbits for Wachtel testing. There would be challenges, but not insurmountable (raising the rabbit to act like wild animals). Just as we are asking the VDW Germans to adjust and understand the differences between North America and German hunting, we may need to adjust sertan aspects of the testing to deal with NA sercomstanses. I think breeding rabbits may be one.
AaronLast edited on Tue Apr 21st, 2009 07:32 pm by Aaron
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BIll
DWNA Member\Breeder
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Posted: Tue Apr 21st, 2009 07:57 pm |
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I wonder if sonewhere has a livetrap they could use to catch a few jacks.
The farm I am on would probably not care if I raised a few rabbits with longer legs.
How about Chad in Kansas? I go out there in the Fall hunting. I might stop by get some if he can trap them. Worse case I might try to trap some on my own when I am there in November. I do see them in central Kansas where I hunt but not many, perhaps 1 every other day.
Bill
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Dave D.
Super Moderator\Breeder
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Posted: Tue Apr 21st, 2009 08:12 pm |
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The dilemma with Jack rabbits is that it is considered a pest...you will most likely be breaking specefic state laws by taking them from one state to another....I know in michigan...it is against the law to remove a wild animal and transport it away from it's point of originality...meaning..if I catch a coon..I have to let it go or destroy it on the spot before transporting....I am not suppose to take it out to the country and let it go....! Now...on the other hand...if you can find a domestic hare that we could utilize....I am sure the state would have a harder time regulating as it would be considered livestock.....
Aaron...I see a big difference in the way the wachtelhund hunts compared to the Drat...you pointed it out exactly....our dogs are much more methodical in the search and depend more on ground scent...the Drats had a hard time getting focused and their nose to the ground....The wachtelhund is bred to track/chase game...they are utilized on drives to work game to the stands....I disagree though on the obedience....I am sure that the two breeds have equally expected "manners". Anyways...thanks for all the feedback...the sooner we duplicate the hare track...the sooner we get to testing!
Dave
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BIll
DWNA Member\Breeder
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Posted: Tue Apr 21st, 2009 08:20 pm |
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At the test I attended in Germany, a jack would take off very fast. A dog was brought to the jump off point and released. By then that jack was long gone as they were fast. It was scent exercise of hot trail. There was no sight chase due to the 2 minute lead of the jack.
There was a chase car at the edge of the farmer field to catch the dog if necesary. I found this interesting as I have never seen a chase car at hunt before!!!
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Aaron
DWNA Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 21st, 2009 08:43 pm |
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Dave,
My comment about obedience expectations is not meant as a negative, just stating different strengths as I have observed them. In the Draht Utility Test (VGP) the dog is given the halt command (Down with head between front legs motionless). The handler walks out of sight with a judge observing from a hidden location. If the dog raises its head, points are removed if he gets up, he is disqualified. There is a similar test for the Wachtel, but not as strict standards.
GP Test: "The dog is rated Very Good when it has remained calmly at its assigned place until the handler returns. The dog is not to be faulted for raising its head, sitting up or standing up in place"
Feel free to correct me, as I have never attended an official Wachtel test, I have only read the English instructions on VDW testing.
Again, I am not meaning anything negative, just an observation on two strong breeds w/different strengths.
Aaron
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Dave D.
Super Moderator\Breeder
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Posted: Tue Apr 21st, 2009 09:01 pm |
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Aaron,
No problem....Didn't take it negative at all(it's good to have differing opinions at times!!  )....I was thinking overall...in all the tests...both require very well "mannered" dogs.....I have not seen the actual drat test rules so knowledge is just from my own experience and what has been told to me (past experience with trainers and NAVHDA)....I actaully think maybe the Wacthels have it harder....
In paragragh 70....
Obedience During the Drive Hunt
Handlers are to be placed like shooters during a forest drive hunt at one side of a thicket. The handlers have their dogs on or off leash, sitting or laying down next to them. While several drivers push through the thicket with customary noise, each of the handlers must fire a shot in sequence. Dogs must remain quiet. They may not whine, bark, jump up, or pull on the leash. The dog is not to be faulted for sitting up.
and Paragragh 71....
Obedience in the Presence of Split Hoofed Game
(1) When the dog at any point of the test comes in contact with split hoofed game or its fresh tracks while within verbal or signal reach of the handler, it should be prompted through verbal or non-verbal commands by the handler to abstain from chasing.
(2) During the flushing work, the dog should be prompted to abstain from chasing split hoofed game by the handler, the placed shooters or the human scent trail of the placed shooters or should return after a brief period of hunting outside the assigned search area (15 minutes).
(3) When the dog hunts split hoofed game (except wild boar) outside the assigned search area for a period exceeding 15 minutes despite having received audible verbal or visible hand signals from its handler, its score for “Obedience in the Presence of Split Hoofed Game” can be scored at best “not adequate”.
(4) When the dog hunts, holds at bay or dispatches game outside the assigned search area that later proves to have been injured, this instance will not be taken into account for the evaluation of “Obedience in the Presence of Split Hoofed Game”.
(5) The judging teams should make every effort to give each dog the opportunity to demonstrate its “Obedience in the Presence of Split Hoofed Game”.
(6) When the dog has had several opportunities to demonstrate “Obedience in the Presence of Split Hoofed Game”, the score is to be the median of all evaluations.
Again this is purely my opinion...it doesn't make yours wrong.....but I think that the Wachtels have different expectations compared to the Drats..... I think the 2 listed situations above would be very hard to achieve...especially for a hard charging pointing breed. I can say that until we see things first hand....we will not really begin to fathom how intensive the training/testing will be!!!
Dave
PS>.....this is my BIAS opinion....we all know that Wachtels are the best!!!    Last edited on Tue Apr 21st, 2009 09:14 pm by Dave D.
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Aaron
DWNA Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 21st, 2009 10:15 pm |
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My Draht has been trained to freeze on point when she sees deer. Funny thing, the deer do not seem to see me, they are focussing on the dog. If I were a poacher, it would be ez pickings. It did however take me 18 months to get her to that point. Drahts in Germany are also used for drives, especially boar. In deer hunting the dog would lay in the halt command off leash and be steady to shot. If the deer is wounded the dog is expected to dispatch it on command.
I am not a pro trainer, but I have trained many dogs of different breeds. Steady to shot with moving game that the dog sees has been a challenge for each dog. It requires patients and determination, and sometime creativity to accomplish this level of training. But, a well trained finished dog is such a treat to hunt with!
Aaron
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Aaron
DWNA Member
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Posted: Tue Apr 21st, 2009 10:33 pm |
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Any one have a suggestion for a domestic leggy rabbit breed? I am willing to breed them but want to be sure that it is the right one.
Thanks, Aaron
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Dave D.
Super Moderator\Breeder
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Posted: Tue Apr 21st, 2009 10:39 pm |
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Aaron wrote:
My Draht has been trained to freeze on point when she sees deer. Funny thing, the deer do not seem to see me, they are focussing on the dog. If I were a poacher, it would be ez pickings. It did however take me 18 months to get her to that point. Drahts in Germany are also used for drives, especially boar. In deer hunting the dog would lay in the halt command off leash and be steady to shot. If the deer is wounded the dog is expected to dispatch it on command.
I am not a pro trainer, but I have trained many dogs of different breeds. Steady to shot with moving game that the dog sees has been a challenge for each dog. It requires patients and determination, and sometime creativity to accomplish this level of training. But, a well trained finished dog is such a treat to hunt with!
Aaron[/quote/)
Very informational....well said!
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Dave P.
Administrator\Breeder
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 04:54 am |
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Aaron & Dave, Good discussions. Actually Wachtelhunds are not supposed to chase healthy deer, only wounded deer to recover them. Often while grouse hunting, deer will jump right up in front of me and my dogs will watch them run off with out chasing them. Blood trailing is different because I train them to do it with a body harness. It is fun to watch them went they find their first several deer. They cautiously approach and sniff the dead deer, like what is this thing.
Another thing, both dogs are bred to hunt entirely different. Gerenally speaking, pointers are bred to cover large areas quickly air scenting for game. The Wachtelhund, or the old German name Stoberhund, was bred to work slower and methodically before the gun and in an arch pattern. The word "stober" translates to "rummage about".
Again, Dave's comment about hunting in Germany has merit, as they hunt differently. I actually hunted with Eberhard Morgenstern in East Germany. One morning, I hunted alone with Morgenstern's Wachtelhund, a brother to Goerke's Pike; in a 50,000 acre federal forest. I was placed in a deer stand with Morgenstern's Wachtelhund on a leash below me. The hunt began at 8:00 AM with drivers and dog handles pushing through the woods. At 9:15 AM the Blasers blew their hunting horns to signal a 15 minute pause in the hunt. During that pause those on stands who had dogs where to turn them lose to hunt independently. Eberhard had instructed me to turn his dog lose and that he would return to the stand around 12:00 noon. Well I turned him lose at 9:20 AM and watched him run off. I climbed back into the stand with a smile on my face. I had no idea where I was and this dog was going to hunt on its own in this huge forest and return in 2 1/2 hours, to me, a stranger whom he had never seen before. Right! Well I think I must have been shocked, because at about 11:45 he came back and laid at the bottom of the stand. At 12 noon the Blasers blew to tune Hahn and Rue (Hammers at Rest) to signal the end of the hunt. I climbed down and put Morgenstern's dog on the leash and headed for the road.
Aaron, your observation about the deer watching the dog and not the person is what makes them useful in coyote calling. Set up and call while the dog is walking around you. The coyotes focus in on the dog while the hunter can even move to get a shot.
Dave, since you are reading the hunt test regulations, please make notes of needed corrections. They were translated by the VDW for us. Some places might need correcting so they read in proper English. For instance, we call animals cloven hoof game not split hoof. I never had a chance to go over them to make corrections.
Today, I posted our DWNA Breeding Regulations on our web site along with our Constitution in German. Two more milestones completed for the VDW and JGHV.
____________________
Dave Pepe
DWNA Chairman
http://www.wachtelhund.us
http://www.deutscherwachtelhund.org
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Sal
DWNA Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | CONNEAUT, Ohio USA |
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 03:55 pm |
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Aaron the San Jaun rabbits is the one we want to use. They are expensive to get a male and female anywhere from 50 to 200 dollars. I have been looking for a male and female to breed myself to see if it will work first. I thought I had 8 of them bought to be delivered this month but some how the breeder found out what I was going to use them for. I have about a half acre ready to put them in to be raise semi-wild. It could hold about 10 to 15 rabbits maybe more. I had mentioned this last year. Having someone breed rabbits for the hunt test. We just have not been able to get it all together.
Sal
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Aaron
DWNA Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 04:02 pm |
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Sal,
Thank you for the info. I did a quick search and found 2 ads. If it is the right rabbit, it is a better price.
TITLE: San Juan Rabbits and Pigeons for sale.
PRICE: Rabbits $6.00, Pigeons $5.00
DESCRIPTION: I have San Juan rabbits for dog training for $6.00 each and mix breed homing pigeons for $5.00 each for sale just outside of Mechanicsburg, Ohio.
Sorry no shipping.
You may reach me by phone at:
(937) 834-2565
or by email at:
cunning@foryou.net
CONTACT: James Pratt
EMAIL: cunning@foryou.net
PHONE: (937)834-2565
ADDRESS: 3985 St Rt 56
Mechanicsburg, OH 43044
COUNTRY: United States
I have homing pigeons for sale for $8.00 to $10.00, both for breeders and young trainable birds, mix breed pigeons for $5.00 and San Juan rabbit bucks for $6.00 and does for $8.00.
If interested please email me at:
kjcaseii@yahoo.com
or call me at:
(937)570-6088
Sorry, no shipping.
Birds and rabbits must be picked up in Dayton, Ohio.
Keith
Last edited on Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 04:07 pm by Aaron
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Sal
DWNA Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 04:17 pm |
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Aaron, I try looking about once a month. I never found that one. Both places are about 4 hours away. I think I will make a call today and maybe make a road trip in the next couple of weeks. Where did you find it?
Sal
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Aaron
DWNA Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 04:26 pm |
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Sal, Bill, and anyone else willing to help,
I did a google search for "San Juan Rabbits, State". You may be able to find a breeder closer to you. It seams that this breed is similar to the European wild. It is described as very athletic and many dog trainers are using them. I found a breeder 1.5h from me, so I guess I better finish my rabbit pen. I always have too many project going on.
Sal, thanks again for the info.
Aaron
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Sal
DWNA Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 05:15 pm |
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Aaron, I just bought 11 San Juan. I pick them up in 2 weeks I will let you know how it goes. There are none that are closer than 3 to 4 hours away
Thanks Sal
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Aaron
DWNA Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 05:17 pm |
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After doing furtherer research, it appears that the San Juan Rabbit is in-fact a European Hare (Lepus europaeus)! Evidently Europeans imported and released the hare to San Juan Island Washington State. Thus, the San Juan Rabbit.
2 verities exist, the first is a large European here about 5#s. The second was crossed with a small Dutch rabbit to create a rabbit with the same eager running disposition but, it is the size of a cotton tale.
If we can get some breeding stalk, I think this could be the solution.
AaronAttachment: button.jpg (Downloaded 74 times)
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Aaron
DWNA Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 05:24 pm |
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Good job Sal! I will also be purchasing some from a breeder in Hurricane, WV.
I hope that others will be willing to try it, if they have the circumstances.
Aaron
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Dave P.
Administrator\Breeder
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 11:24 pm |
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| Sal, Good, let me know how they run? How many bucks and how many does did you get?
____________________
Dave Pepe
DWNA Chairman
http://www.wachtelhund.us
http://www.deutscherwachtelhund.org
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